Hypocrisy and Porn

Warning: the following article may not be suitable for young people.

Questions

Is it a double standard to say a thing is completely acceptable, and then criminalize the use of the thing?

Is it hypocritical to say something is protected as free speech under the law, and then prohibit someone from listening or viewing the “speech”?

If something is deemed simply natural, not immoral or subject to the restrictions of an objective moral code, then is it acceptable to restrict someone from doing or partaking in what is simply “natural”?

These are honest questions. They are not meant to be leading. They are simply questions which I have been asking lately, because the double standard and hypocrisy are evident in our laws.

No Internet

For a while I have had the opportunity to counsel with a paroled sex offender. He is trying desperately to rebuild his life. He is completely repentant and wants to be the man God wants him to be, including provide for his family. The problem is the internet.

Almost everything we do these days, from sending emails to filling out applications, is done online. There are hardly any cell phones for sale that are not internet accessible. Yet, in the case of this man, he is not allowed to be on the internet – period. No phone, no computer, no iPad – nothing that will allow him internet access. Why? Because he might view pornography.

Excuse me? I thought pornography was perfectly legal. I thought pornography was protected as free speech. I thought that porn was safe, even good for one’s marriage. I thought porn was supposed to be art. Was I wrong?

Evidently, a convicted sex offender on parole is prohibited from viewing pornography because it might cause him to want to do sexually illegal things. Really?

Told You So

Now wait a minute! Haven’t we Christians being talking about the dangers of pornography for a while? Haven’t we said Scripture advises against such things? Sure! And here are just a few applicable verses:

But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. – Matthew 5:28 NKJV

Marriage [is] honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. – Hebrews 13:4 NKJV

I have made a covenant with my eyes; why then should I look upon a young woman? – Job 31:1 NKJV

Was the Bible wrong? Why is it that Christians and their pastors who preach the Bible are considered “Victorian” and backward? “The human body is a beautiful thing,” they say, “and you Christians are just prudes.”

No, God designed sex for marriage, not the gratification of anyone with internet access. And anyone who views pornography is not only lusting, which is a sin, but he is flirting with a ticking time bomb. Pornography IS dangerous. Pornography IS obscene. And pornography can lead a man to act out his fantasies when viewing them on a computer is no longer good enough.

My question is this: if it is so wrong for a sex offender to view it, all because it might tempt him to commit another sex crime, then why is it perfectly OK for everyone else to view it?

It’s called HYPOCRISY.

54 Comments

Filed under Christian Living, Christian Maturity, Defending Traditional Marriage, Uncategorized

54 responses to “Hypocrisy and Porn

  1. Have you seen today’s Ebs and Flows. A men’s breakfast followed by a seminar on worldly addictions (i.e. Internet porn) was one of the best attended events at our church.
    http://nwelford.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/webbed-feet/

  2. Well said and thanks for asking the hard questions everyone else is afraid to ask but are thinking about it nonetheless.

  3. Andrew

    So, what exactly are you calling for here?

    If viewing pornography as a Christian is wrong…don’t do it.

    Am I missing something here?

    • Yep.

      Anthony Psalm 57:2

      Sent from iPhone.

      • Andrew

        wait, I’m sorry…Am I missing something or did I nail it down?

      • Andrew, the point of this post was pretty straightforward, I thought. The same people that say it is ok to buy, sell, view, and participate in porn are the same people that, on the flip of a coin, deem pornography dangerous and capable of eliciting wrong behavior. So, which is it? The ACLU fought laws restricting access to porn sites in public libraries, knowing the reasoning for it was to protect children from exposure. Yet, they’re convinced that, as per the case in which I testified, pornography was partly to blame for sexual abuse! Is it harmful, or isn’t it? Is it immoral, or isn’t it? This is the hypocrisy I addressed. I thought that was clear.

  4. heather joy

    This post was excellent. It’s amazing to me that our political leaders so concerned with making new laws don’t see the harm in some of the things they legalize. Of course, they see the danger of them on down the road when they’re scraping bodies out of the drug houses, hunting down missing women and children being sold as sex slaves, and sentencing sex offenders for the third and fourth times.

  5. Andrew

    Anthony, perhaps I should phrase my question in a different manner:

    What would qualify, in your opinion, for forcing Christian beliefs on another person…or is that inherently impossible?

    • Sharia, for one (but wait, that’s not Christian). But since I feel this is a baited question, let me ask, at what point does an atheist force his views on others? All men are free moral agents, so at what point is a man’s freedom squashed? Do laws do that? Or do they protect the freedom of others? At what point do the others, by force of their numbers, overrule the rights of the
      individual? Are atheists incapable of forcing their beliefs on Christians? Are laws that restrict immoral behavior for the good of society immoral? From where come the standards for morality, the majority? What if the majority are radical Muslim extremists? Do they then make all laws moral if deemed best for mankind? Or, are there morals that are transcendent? Are there objective truths that give us the ability to distinguish between a moral culture and an evil one?

      • Andrew

        The question isn’t really baited so much as you’re afraid to answer it. Or, perhaps you’re afraid of the answer. I am not sure which.

        In any case, let’s answer a few questions since you asked so many!

        Laws, in the most fundamental sense, are designed to protect the freedom of the individual. This is accomplished by levying penalties on those who infringe on the freedom of others. For example, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc are stripped of their freedom (prison) as penance for their crime.

        By definition, an atheist cannot force his beliefs on others, because he has none. Now, with that said, if an atheist were to attempt to legislatively force you to renounce your faith in Jesus, that would be wrong, as he has blocked your ability to freely live your life. This is different than the atheist arguing with you on the existence of God. That is free speech and discourse is good for everyone.

        To your final point regarding morality itself. It is a common theme among theists that if morals are not absolute and do not emanate from a Supreme Author, than we have no compass whatsoever and, thus, must be unable to distinguish all good from all bad.

        Not only is the logic flawed, but it is petty. Empathy is an inborn quality that is evidenced in other species beyond humans. (after all, despite our theist-supported idea or moral superiorty, the only species that wars one another) God need not exist to know that killing my neighbor is wrong (or stealing his things etc).

        So yes, there are objective truths wired into the framework of human existence. And they don’t come from God.

        And to my original question: how does legislating morality (I should clarify: CHRISTIAN morality) now constitute forced belief? After all, every individual living under the jurisdiction of that legislation would be then wholly bound to it.

    • Andrew

      this is my reply to your response to my previous comment, since I now can’t click reply…

      The point of the disparity is that a sick mind is being limited to exposures that may lead to a regression.

      Some people have been adjudicated mentally defective to own a firearm because they possess a quality or lack of understanding of what firearms are capable of. This does not raise the argument of whether firearms are destructive or not. It simply recognizes that some people should not have access to firearms.

      Likewise, the “system” isn’t saying that all pornograpy is harmful when they say one person, who is personally susceptible to it, should not have access.

      For further logic, see my response below regarding individual liberties.

      (also, I like your blog…you’re an intelligent guy and you form your points well!)

      • Andrew I couldnt resist chiming in. You said : “there are objective truths wired into the framework of human existence”. The problem with that is if morality is a product of socio-biological evolution, then that is not “objective” at all. People can be “wired” differently. Whos “wiring” is right? Hitler’s or Mother Theresa? Without an ultimate Law Giver above individuals and cultures then all you have is relativism. No way around that.
        Also for what its worth, morality is the foundation of all law. Every law, if its a just law, has a moral component. ALL laws force a moral view point. No way around that either. We can debate what things ought to be legislated of course, but lets not play the “dont force your values on me” card. We all have a moral view point. The question is who’s view is right. What is the ultimate foundation for your moral beliefs? An athiestic worldview gives you the illusion of objective morality with no ultimate foundation. The Christian worldview, rightly understood, can justify objective morality.

        Thats my two cents.

  6. Andrew

    Wiith all due respect, Steve, Christians hardly define the moral high ground. There seems to be this pervasive sense of moral superiority among Christians. Really? Which parts of the Bible do you derive your morality from? Or, does the Holy Spirit personally reveal what is right and wrong? Whose to say one’s personal revelation might be different than another’s? Or what about the Bible? Yeah…there’s a lesson in how we should conduct ourselves. Or do you just want to cherry-pick the rosy parts?

    The pink tabs are for murder, purple for human or animal sacrifice, blue for rape, yellow for slavery and green for misogyny. So, yeah, guess its probably not the best guide…if I followed its advice, I’d go to jail!

    So to your point, the old tired argument of “we wouldn’t know hitler was wrong and mother theresa was right if god didn’t teach us” is intellectually small and just plain wore out. I don’t need a god to know killing people is wrong. To an extent, morality IS relative due in major part to social customs. And THAT is the biology of the matter: groups of people, geographically separated, decide on a certain set of ideas they deem moral. For example, at one time Mormons felt polygamy was perfectly acceptable, so that was moral for them. Maybe not for you, but for them.

    The only time absolutes come into play is when a certain, affected party in the discussion, is unable to engage in a contract (even if only verbal) and/or issue consent…such as children.

    And that’s my two cents.

    • Steve, looks like you made a friend 😉

      Anthony Psalm 57:2

      Sent from iPhone.

    • Steve C.

      As I said, Christianity “properly understood” provides justification for objective moral values. Educating you on a proper theology of the Old and New Testament isnt going to happen on this blog post. If I could I dont think it would matter to you anyway.

      As for your copied and pasted list of Biblical atrocities it sounds like you “morally” object to them. On what basis? Your worldview only allows you to say you dont like them, NOT that they are objectively wrong.

      Finally, not everything recorded in the Bible is proscribed but rather is describing the real acts of people and their consequences. The history of mankind isnt pretty. We are all twisted, broken, individuals that need to be redeemed. What should amaze you most is that God would love you enough to die for you. He did…whether you believe it or not.

  7. Andrew

    for further reading on the ridiculousness that is the Christian idea of moral superiority, I quote The Bible:

    B. Old Testament Morality
    1. Human Sacrifice
    a. God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (Gen 22)
    b. Anything devoted to God, of man or beast, shall be put to death (Lev 27:28-29).
    c. God’s anger is sometimes turned away by killing people (Num 25:4, 8, 2 Sam 21).
    d. Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to fulfil his vow to God (Judges 11:29-39).
    e. Mesha, King of Moab, sacrifices his firstborn (2 Kings 3:27).
    f. Prisoners of war are sacrificed (1 Sam 15:33, 2 Sam 21:1-9, Num 21:2).
    g. A messiah will be beaten and crucified to pay the penalty for man’s sin. Ps 22, Is 53
    2. Animal Sacrifice
    a. Much of exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are devoted to the manner in which animals are to be slaughtered, smeared onto the people, distributed, burnt and eaten.
    b. 22,000 oxen, 120,000 sheep sacrificed at dedication of Solomon’s temple (1 Kings 8:63, 2 Chron 6).
    c. Blood of the sacrificial animals is to be smeared over thr priests and the people (Ex 29:20, 12, 21, Lev 4:6-7,17-18, 25, 30, 34, 5:9, Ezek 43-46).
    d. A heifer is to be killed if a man is found murdered by someone unknown (Deut 21:1-9).
    3. War
    a. Much of the old testament is a record of Israel’s wars, with god as their protector and champion.
    b. Psalmist prays for God to be on his side in war (Ps 35:1ff).
    c. David is praised for ten thousand slain (1 Sam 18:6-8).
    d. David wars on the Geshurites, Gezrites and Amalekites to steal
    their land (1 Sam 27:8).
    e. With the Lord’s approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people. EX 17:13
    4. Genocide and Slaughter
    a. Genocide is a tool used by god to further israel’s interests. It is usually unclear what the exterminated had done to deserve annihilation other than being in the way of the israelites or worshipping a different god.
    b. The Israelites slaughter Hamor and his city and plunder it (Gen 34).
    c. Moses is commanded by God to exterminate the Canaanites, the Amorites and the people of Bashan “and show no mercy” (Deut 7:1-2, 9:3, Num 21).
    d. Moses orders “every man” among the Israelites to slay his brother, companion and neighbor, as a punishment for the idolatry of all, and 3000 die (Ex 32:27-28).
    e. God commands Moses to slaughter 24,000 people and hang their heads in the sun (Num 25).
    f. God commands Moses to slay the Midianites because the Israelites are seduced by them. All males (including infants) and adult women are killed; virgins are enslaved (Num 25:17,31:1-2, 7, 15-18).
    g. God’s annihilation of Sihon’s people and others (Deut 2:30-35, 36, 3:1-7).
    h. God commands Moses, in any city near the promised land which does not agree to become a vassal state of the Israelites, to kill all the males and take the women and children as slaves and the animals as booty, but in any city in the promised land the Israelites are to kill every living thing, sparing no one (Deut 20:10-17).
    i. Joshua, with the help of God, annihilates numerous tribes and cities, “left none breathing,” “destroyed all that breathed, as God commanded” (Josh 6:21, 8:24-27, 10:, 11:11,14,21-22).
    j. Judah slays 10,000 Canaanites (Judg 1:4) and 10,000 Moabites (Judg 3:29)
    k. Danites destroy “peaceful” Laish and kill its people for no reason (Judg 18:27).
    l. Judah and Simeon utterly destroy Zephath (Judg 1:17).
    m. Samuel tells Saul that God wants to annihilate the Amalekites, including infants and women, which Saul then does, slaying all the inhabitants except Agag the king (1 Sam 15:1-9).
    n. David leaves no man or woman alive in the countries he invades: Geshurites, Gezrites and Amalekites (1 Sam 27:9,11).
    o. David takes Rabbah and puts its people “under saws…and harrows… and axes of iron and made them pass through thebrickkiln” and does the same to all the cities of Ammon (2 Sam 12:31, 1 Chr 20:3).
    p. David executes 2/3 of Moab by measuring a line (2 Sam 8:2).
    q. More slaughter by David (2 Sam 8:5, 13, 10:18).
    r. God helps Judah kill 50,000 Israelites (2 Chr 13:17).
    s. Esther gets permission for the Jews to slaughter all their enemies, including women and children, which they do, then celebrate it and institute the feast of Purim to remember it
    (Esther 8:11, 9:1-19).
    t. “Let none [of Babylon] escape” (Jer 50:29).
    u. “Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children,” says God (Ezek 9:6).
    5. Cruelty, Barbarity and Violence
    a. God requires all male infants to have their penises mutilated (Gen 17:10-27).
    b. God orders horses to be hamstrung (Josh 11:6).
    c. Judah cuts off thumbs and toes of his captive Adonibezek, which is justified because he had done it to his captives (Judg 1:6-7).
    d. Samuel “hewed [King] Agal in pieces before the Lord” (1 Sam15:33).
    e. David boasts of his cruelty (2 Sam 22:41-43).
    f. David pays 200 foreskins as dowry (1 Sam 18:27).
    g. David “shed blood causeless” (1 Sam 18:31).
    h. David’s treatment of captive people of Rabbah: he “cut them with
    saws, put them “under harrows of iron, and under axes of
    iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln” (1 Chron
    20:3, 2 Sam 12:31).
    i. Jehu has Jezebel killed and her body mutilated (2 Kings 9:3-37).
    j. Ahab’s family are slaughtered (2 Kings 9, 10); this is praised by God (10:30).
    k. “Happy shall be he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones [in revenge]” (Ps 137:9).
    l. Samaria’s infants will be dashed in pieces, pregnant women ripped up (Hos 13:16).
    m. Other dashing of infants, ripping of pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12, 15:16, Isa 13:15-18, Hosea 10:14).
    n. The righteous will laugh when their enemies fall (Ps 52:6).
    o. Cruelty, vengeance and hatred permeate the Psalms, e.g. 59:10-13, 68:21-23, 109:6-14, 139:19-22, 140:10.
    p. Hell, which God created for punishment of his creatures, is a place of everlasting torment and cruelty (Rev 14:11, 16:9), a continuation of God’s torment of unbelievers in this life (Deut 28:15-68, Lev 26)
    q. David praying for the death of someone who spoke against him, and that his children become poor vagabonds hated by all. Ps109:1-115
    6. Deceit, Treachery
    a. Jacob and his mother deceive dying Isaac so that Jacob receives his birthright blessing. This is how the Israelites become God’s chosen people i.e., god honors the deceit Gen 27.
    b. Jacob’s sons promise Shechem their sister Dinah, but slaughter him instead, and the whole city (Gen 34).
    c. God instructs Israelite women to borrow the Egyptian women’s jewelry and not return it (Ex 3:22).
    d. Rahab the harlot, who betrayed her city to Joshua, is rewarded for her treachery with her life and becomes an ancestress of Jesus (Josh 6:22-25, Matt 1:5, Heb 11:31).
    e. David on his deathbed breaks his promise to Shimei not to kill him and instead arranges to have him killed (1 Kings 2:8-9,2 Sam 19:21-23).
    f. Elijah is to anoint Hazael king of Syria (1 Kings 19:15) but Hazael becomes king by treacherously lying to Benhadad and murdering him, following the instructions of Elisha (2 Kings 8:8-15).
    g. Jehu uses treachery to destroy the worshippers of Baal (2 Kings10:18-28).
    7. Polygamy
    a. Lamech is the first polygamist (Gen 4:19).
    b. Polygamy is discouraged in the king (Deut 17:17).
    c. Abraham takes Hagar as wife while married to Sarah (Gen 16).
    d. Abraham has concubines (Gen 25:6).
    e. Isaac takes more wives. Gen 26:34-35
    f. Jacob married Leah and Rachel (Gen 29, 31:50; this violates Lev 18:18).
    g. Rachel gives Jacob her maid, Leah also (Gen 30:1-4, 9-13; in this Jacob violates his covenant at Gen 31:50)
    h. Gideon has 70 sons “by many wives” (Judg 8:30).
    i. David had many wives, violating Deut 17:17 (1 Sam passim, e.g. 25:42-43, 2 Sam 3:2-5, 5:13-16), but God gave them to David (2 Sam 12:8).
    j. Solomon had 700 wives, 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3; Song 6:8 says 60 wives, 80 concubines, and “virgins without number”).
    k. Rehoboam had many wives (2 Chron 11:18-23).
    l. Law provides for protection for the son of a polygamous wife whose husband hates her, but no protection for the hated wife herself (Deut 21:15-16).
    m. Law about authorizing polygamy (Ex 21:10).
    n. God will use polygamy as a punishment (Isa 4:1).
    8. Prostitution
    a. Boaz pays Ruth in barley for spending the night with him (Ruth 3:15).
    b. Leah buys sex with Jacob by giving Rachel the mandrakes which Reuben had harvested (Gen 30:14-16).
    c. God orders Hosea to purchase a harlot (Hos 1:2, 3:1-2).
    9.Abuse of Women
    a. A mother is unclean for twice as long after the birth of a daughter as after a son (Lev 12).
    b. A woman is “unclean” during her menstrual period and for seven days afterward, i.e. for approximately half her adult life and is not allowed to come into contact with men. (Lev 15:19-28, Ezek 18:6). To purify herself each month she
    must make a “sin offering” (Lev 15:29-30).
    c. Only males can enter the covenant, since it requires the rite of circumcision.
    d. Adam blames Eve for his sin in the Garden (Gen 3:12).
    e. Eve’s curse is that Adam shall rule over her (Gen 3:16).
    f. A wife is listed among her husbands property, after the house (Ex 20:17, Deut 5:21).
    g. God gives the Israelites rules and regulations for selling their daughters (but not their sons) into slavery (Ex 21:7-11).
    h. Miriam is made a leper temporarily for speaking against Moses (Num 12:1-10), but Aaron, who was equally guilty, is not punished.
    i. Moses enslaves 32,000 virgins (Num 31:18, 35).
    j. Israelites slaughter their fellow Israelites of Jabesh-Gilead to obtain wives (Judg 21:1-14).
    k. Males of Benjamin are advised to get wives by abducting women of Shiloh (Judg 21:16-23).
    l. A divorced woman is as unclean as a whore and unsuited as the wife of a priest (Lev 21:7, Ezek 44:22).
    m. A woman cannot remarry her first husband if she married another and was widowed or again divorced (Deut 24:1-4).
    n. Rules for taking a captive woman to wife and what to do if you decide you don’t like her after all (Deut 21:10-14).
    o. A rape victim must marry her rapist. The rapist must pay a penalty to the victim’s father, but not to her (Deut 22:28-29).
    p. If a man has sex with another man’s female slave, the slave is to be scourged, but the man will be forgiven if he offers a ram as sacrifice (Lev 19:20-22).
    q. A man may divorce his wife, but there is no provision for a wife to divorce her husband (Deut 24:1, Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10, Rom 7:2-3).
    r. A man who is suspicious of his wife may require her to undergo the ordeal of drinking the “bitter water that causeth the curse,” which causes the thigh to rot and the belly to swell
    (Num 5:11-31).
    s. Absalom has sex with his father’s (David’s) concubines to insult him. David then punishes the concubines by imprisoning them for life (2 Sam 16:21-22, 20:3).
    t. David purchases Michal from Saul (2 Sam 3:13).
    u. God will punish the men by causing their wives to be ravished (Isa 13:16, Zech 14:2).
    v. Judah condemns Tamar to be burned for harlotry, when he himself had been her patron (Gen 38:24).
    10. Abandonment of family
    a. Abraham casts Hagar and Ishmael out, leaving them destitute (Gen 16:6, 21:14).
    b. Hagar abandons Ishmael to die (Gen 21:15).
    c. Abraham sends away his concubines and children (Gen 25:6).
    d. A freed slave who will not abandon his slave wife and children shall have his ear pierced and remain a slave for life (Ex 21:4-6).
    e. To please God, the Jews abandon all their foreign wives and children (Ezra 10).
    12. Homosexuality
    a. Homosexuality is forbidden; its punishment is to be “cut off” or killed (Lev 18:22, 20:13, Deut 23:17, 1 Cor 6:9).
    b. Permitting homosexuality is a worse sin than permitting rape of a woman (Gen 19:1-8, Judg 19:22-29).
    13. Extortion
    a. David shakes down Nabal. Abigail pays him (1Sam 25).
    14. Cannibalism
    a. God will cause cannibalism as a punishment (Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lev 26:29, Deut 28:53-57, Isa 49:26, Lam 2:20; fulfilled: Lam 4:10, 2 Kings 6:26-29)
    15. Slavery
    a. Noah institutes slavery (Gen 9:25-26).
    b. Abraham had slaves (Gen 17:12, 23).
    c. Isaac gives Jacob his brothers as slaves (Gen 27:37, 40).
    d. God frees the Israelites from slavery, but they themselves owned slaves (Ex 12:44).
    e. General rules that allow for possession of slaves, e.g. a Hebrew may be kept enslaved by another Hebrew for only six years: Lev 19:20, 25:44-54, Ex 21:2-11, Deut 15:12ff.
    f. Jeremiah condemns Israel for not releasing their Israelite slaves after six years (as commanded at Ex 21:2), but does not condemn slavery in general (Jer 34:13-18).
    g. There is no punishment for killing your own slave by beating if the slave does not die immediately (Ex 21:20-21). But if the beating causes loss of an eye or a tooth, the slave is
    freed (v 26-27). Thus, the equivalent value of freedom is one tooth.
    h. Damages to the owner for killing his slave is 30 shekels of silver (Ex 21:32).
    i. A freed slave who will not abandon his slave wife and children shall have his ear pierced and remain a slave for life (Ex 21:4-6, cf. Deut 15:16-17).
    j. God will use slavery as a punishment (Deut 28:32, 41, 68, Judg 2:14, Joel 3:8).
    k. God commands the people to enslave themselves to Nebuchadnezzar, his “servant” (Jer 27:2-13).
    l. God will enslave the children of the enemies of Judah (Joel 3:8, Isa 14:2).
    m. Slavery is better than death (Jer 27:13).
    16. Religious intolerance
    a. Kill a false prophet (Deut 13:1-5, 18:20).
    b. Kill anyone who teaches you another religion, even a member of your family (Deut 13:1-11, 18:20).
    c. Kill anyone who apostatizes from the true religion (Deut 17:2-5).
    d. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, i.e., there will be no toleration of other religious beliefs (Isa 45:23, Phil 2:10-11, Rom 14:11, Dan 7:27, Isa 2:2-4).
    e. Places of false worship should be destroyed (Deut 12:1-3).
    f. Elijah kills 450 priests of Baal with his own hand (1 Kings 18:40).
    17. Obscene, Offensive, Indecent or Erotic Passages
    a. Rules for the Israelites how they should bury their feces so that God doesn’t have to see it (Deut 23:12-14) .
    b. Isaac has sex with his wife in public (Gen 26:8).
    c. David exposes himself in public (2 Sam 6:20-22).
    d. Absalom has sex with David’s concubines so that all can see (2Sam 16:20-22).
    e. God will punish David by giving his wives to another to enjoy in public view (2 Sam 12:11)
    f. Wicked whoredoms of Aholah and Aholibah are described, with explicit references to breast massage, the large size of penises (“like donkeys”) and the abundance of the male ejaculate (“like horses”). Ezek 23, esp v 3, 8, 17-21.
    g. God will “spread dung upon your faces” (Mal 2:3).
    h. Rehoboam boasts that his finger is thicker than his father’s penis 1Kings 12:10, 2Chron 10:10
    i. God will punish Jerusalem by making them eat barley cakes made with human dung, except God gives Ezekiel cow dung for bread instead (Ezek 4:12-15).
    j. Song of Songs, an erotic love poem.
    C. Morality of God
    1. God Created everything (Prov 26:10, Col 1:16) including evil. Isa 45:7, Amos 3:6, Lam 3:38
    2. God is unquestionably just and righteous in all of his works Duet 32:4, Dan 9:14
    3. God should be feared because he can send you to hell Matt 10:28, Luke 12:5, Heb 10:31
    4. God causes blindness, deafness and dumbness Ex 4:11
    5. God causes suffering so that his great works can be demonstrated John 9:1-9, 11:4, Isa 30:20, Ezek 38:16
    6. God Kills Deut 32:29, 1 Sam 2:6
    7. God causes rain, tempest, drought and hurricanes Job 5:10, 37:2-12, Isa 30:30, 42:15, Matt 5:45
    8. God sends lying spirits and deceives prophets before destroying them 1 Kings 22:19-23, 2 Thess 2:11, Ezek 14:9, Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Tit 1:2
    9. God hates violence of mankind so he violently destroys all life Gen 6:11-13, Ezek 8:17
    10. God rejoices in the destruction of sinners Deut 28:63, Ps 37:13, Pr 1:26
    11. God sends evil spirits 1 Sam 16:14, 18:10, 19:9, Judge 9:23
    12. God tempts and can lead mankind into temptation Gen 22:1, Matt 6:13
    13. God tried to kill moses Ex 4:24
    14. God assists manslaughter Ex 21:13
    15. God stirs up jealousy Isa 42:13, Deut 32:21
    16. God Sends false prophets to test people Deut 13:1-3
    17. God gives false laws, commandments and statutes. Ezek 20:25-26
    18. Sends delusions and lies so that people might be damned 2 Thess 2:11-12, Isa 6:9-12, Mk 4:12
    19. Lists punishments, including cannibalism, he will carry out to disobedient Lev 26, Deut 28
    20. Sends locusts and pests to eat crops Joel 2:25
    21. Becomes angry when Saul doesn’t kill enough 1 Sam 15:18-19, 28:18
    22. Ends a famine after seven innocent men are hanged 2 Sam 21 (v14)
    23. God is Jealous Ex 20:5, Num 25:11, Deut 5:9, Josh 24:19
    24. Repents Gen 6:6, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:11, 35, 2 Sam 24:16, Jonah 3:10, Jer 18:10, Joel 2:13
    25. God demands blood as a sacrifice Lev 3:2, 4:6-7, Gen 8:21, Lev 1:9, Ezek 20:40-41
    26. God’s sword is covered with blood and greasy fat Isa 34:6
    27. God belches fire and smoke in anger Ps 18:7-8, 15
    28. God has commanded drunkeness Jer 25:27
    29. God rewards fools and transgressors Prov 26:10
    30. Kills Uzzah for trying to steady the ark 1 Chron 13:10, 2 Sam 6:7
    31. Allows David to choose the punishment inflicted on the people for David’s sin 2 Sam 24:11-13
    32. Tricks David into a census and then vents his anger on the people, killing 70,000 2 Sam 24:1
    33. Hardens pharaoh’s heart so that he can punish him and his people and commands moses to threaten pharaoh with murder Ex 4:21-23, 7:3, 13, 10:1
    34. God hardens people’s hearts Rom 9:18
    35. Considers the handicap, illegitimate children and their descendants, or men with injured genitalia inferior and unworthy to enter the congregation . Lev 21:17-23, Deut 23:1-2
    36. God uses his chosen people to punish other nations Ps 149:5-9
    37. God punishes many for the sins of one, the innocent are punished for the guilty, especially their guilty ancestors Deut 28:41; Gen 9:24-25, 20:7,18, Ex 12:29, 20:5, 34:7, Num 16, Deut 5:9, 23:2, 28:32, 41, Josh 7:8-26, 22:20, 2 Kings 5:27, Isa 14:21, Ezek 23:25, 46-47, Mal 1:2-4, Jer 31:29-30, Hos 2:4-5, Rom 5:14, also Adam’s Fall generally in NT)
    38. God will punish the men by causing their wives to be ravished and their children to be “dashed to pieces” (Isa 13:16, 18, Zech 14:2, Nah 3:10)
    39. God’s punishment of entire nations or cities by destroying every living thing naturally includes the destruction of babies and unborn embryos (e.g. Isa 34, the Flood, the plagues on Egypt, Sodom; Jesus also: Matt 11:20-24).
    40. God will cause adultery as punishment (Deut 28:30).
    41. God will cause drunkenness as punishment (Jer 13:12-13).
    42. God will “spread dung upon your faces” as punishment (Mal 2:3).
    43. God punishes one third of the human race (the descendents of Ham) because one man’s nakedness was seen by his son (Gen 9:24-25).
    44. God punishes Pharaoh and Abimelech because of Abraham’s lie about Sarah. Abraham is not punished for lying (Gen 12:14-20, 20:18).
    45. God turns Lot’s wife into salt for looking back (Gen 19:26).
    46. God kills for Onan for “spilling his seed on the ground” (Gen 38:10).
    47. God endorses Judah condemning Tamar to death by burning for harlotry (Gen 38:24).
    48. God kills all of Egypt’s firstborn, including animals, to punish Pharaoh (Ex 12:29).
    49. God will punish an animal with death if it grazes on the mountain while he is there (Ex 19:12)
    50. Miriam is made a leper temporarily for speaking against Moses (Num 12:1-10), but Aaron, who was equally guilty, is not punished.
    51. God punishes the Israelites for complaining about their food, first by sending fire to kill them (Num 11:1), then by sending poisonous snakes to kill many (Num 21:4-6).
    52. God punishes the Israelites with plague for eating the quails he sent (Num 11:33).
    53. God kills Korah and 250 others, with their families, because they questioned Moses’ authority (Num 16:1-40).
    54. God kills another 14,700 by plague, for murmuring against the punishment of Korah (Num 16:41-50).
    55. Nadab and Abihu are burnt to death for offering “strange fire” (Lev 10:1-5).
    56. Achan and his children and animals are burned to death for Achan’s crime of keeping booty (Josh 7:8-26).
    57. God smites a whole city with hemorrhoids as punishment for taking the ark (1 Sam 5:6-9).
    58. God kills 50,000 men of Beth-shemesh because they looked into the Ark (1 Sam 6:19).
    59. God kills Nabal for refusing to be extorted by David and gives David Nabal’s wife (1 Sam 25:38).
    60. God kills David’s child in order to punish David (2 Sam 12:15-18).
    61. God will punish David by giving his wives to another to enjoy in public view (2 Sam 12:11-12).
    62. God does not punish Solomon for Solomon’s sin, but punishes Solomon’s son (1 Kings 11:9-12).
    63. God kills a prophet for believing a lie told by another prophet of God (1 Kings 13).
    64. God causes a lion to kill a man because he refused to strike a prophet when commanded (1 Kings 20:35-36).
    65. God causes 42 children to be killed by bears because they tease Elisha about his baldness (2 Kings 2:23-24).
    66. God caused cannibalism as a punishment (Lam 4:9-11, 2 Kings 6:26-29).
    67. God will punish Samaria by allowing their infants to be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women to be ripped up (Hos 13:16).
    68. God strikes a sorcerer with blindness for trying to dissuade a
    potential convert (Acts 13:6-12).
    69. God causes infant sacrifice (Ezek 20:26).
    70. God is a “man of war” and causes war between people for his glory. (Ex 15:3 Deut 3:22 2 Sam 22:35, Ps 18:34, 144:1 Ps 24:8 Ezek 38:16, 23)
    D. Morality of Jesus
    1. Endorsed stoning disobedient children in Mat 15:3-6,
    2. Approved of god’s OT killings and said that one day he will do the same Matthew 24:37, Matthew 10:14-15.
    3. Condemned entire cities to hellfire for not believing Matthew 11:21-24.
    4. He perpetuated racism Mark 7:26-27, Matthew 15:22-26
    5. Came not to bring peace, but a sword Matt 10:34
    6. Requires disciples to hate their family Luke 14:26, Matt 10:37
    7. Came to turn children against their parents and vice versa Matt 10:21, 35, Luke 12:51-53
    8. Rejects his mother Matt 12:48, Mark 3:33, John 2:4
    9. Spoke three times as much about hell and condemnation than heaven.
    E. New Testament Morality
    1. Everlasting torment of god’s creatures in hell, as well as suffering of and torment of non-believers during the tribulation (Rev 14:11, 16:9, Rev 9:3-10)
    2. Injustice towards Women
    a. No woman can have authority over a man 1 Tim 2:12
    b. Women should keep silent in churches 1 Cor 14:34
    c. Woman is subordinate to man 1 Cor 11:3-11, Eph 5:22-33, 1 Pet 3:1-6
    d. Women have to cover their head when praying, men do not. 1 Cor 11:5
    e. Man may divorce or “put away” his wife, but no provision for woman to do the same. Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10, Rom 7:2-3
    3. Homosexuality
    a. Is a sin and causes one to be reprobate Romans 1:26-28
    b. Effeminate men cannot be saved 1 Cor 6:9
    4. Slavery
    a. Slaves are to obey their masters, especially if the master is christian 1 Tim 6:1-2, Tit 2:9-10, Eph 6:5, Col 3:22
    b. Slaves should accept their state 1 Cor 7:21-24, 1 Pet 2:18
    5. Relgious Intolerance
    a. Do not bid Godspeed or be friends with a non-Christian 2 John 10, 2 Cor 6:14
    b. Do not question god Matt 4:7, 7:15, 24:11, 24:24-26, 1 John 2:27, Rom 9:20, 2 Cor 10:5-6,

    • heather joy

      oh wow…. O_o

      • Andrew

        I know, right!?

      • Andrew, I have been wanting to respond, but I haven’t because of several reasons. One is that I have had a lot on my plate, especially with a sick wife. Between taking her to the ER and preaching on Sunday, I was up at least 2 days straight.

        Secondly, I thought I’d sit back and let others write a little. I don’t mind sharing.

        Then there was the fact that you make me tired. I’m not talking about “sick and tired,” just plain old tired. There’s nothing quick and to the point with you, which is fine, but it is very tiring. You see, you do bring up good points, for the most part, but the answers to many of your questions are like multilayered onions. If I were to take the time to peel through them all I’d truly be in tears.

        Lastly, I don’t want to run off at the mouth, either. Sometimes I’m guilty of speaking without thinking. You deserve better than “you’re going to HELL!” of course you may be, but that’s beside the point 😉

        The original thing you tried to stump me with was the idea of Christians forcing their beliefs on others. Do I think it’s possible? Sure. Christians did it to other Christians for hundreds of years. One look at what Calvin and Zwingli did to the Anabaptists proves that. But when it comes to the law in this country, we are not a theocracy. The laws in place were not put there by Christians, alone.

        You’ve asked a out forcing morality, but I think Steve answered that pretty well. Either way, I’m not going to debate it any more. It’s not my specialty. All I’ll say is that morals are woven into law, and that is without question. The only question is who’s morals are going to win.

        Now, you may have broken the record when it comes to the size of a response. One other guy may have you beat. But that lengthy list of biblical inconsistencies would take me the rest of the year to address, and that is not what this blog is for. Besides, there are bigger apologetic brains out there who could do a far better job. I would recommend a few right off the top of my head: C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, Ravi Zacharias, Lee Strobel, Frank Turek, Douglas Groothius, and Norman Geisler. You, I’m sure, could list names, but you get the point. If you really wants answers, there are sources who are better at the details than me. I even have one book that specifically addresses hundreds of “inconsistencies” and shows how most are based simply on a less-than-elementary knowledge of theology. For example, to say that God condoned human sacrifice because He told Abraham to kill Isaac is to admit total unfamiliarity with the doctrine of redemption and the prophetic context of this story.

        My blog was never conceived to be a Christian apologetic. Most of those who regularly visit here are already believers in Christ. They are here because they want to read a little humor, a different opinion, or be encouraged by grace.

        But I will say that when it comes to finding fault with Christianity, anyone can do that, especially those who have been hurt by one. What’s more, it is human nature to want to rebel against authority, so finding fault with God should come as easy as breathing. A rebellious teen can argue with a brick wall, but it doesn’t change anything.

        Go to Jesus, Andrew. He is who we are supposed to be like. Was He who He said He was? Was He just a man? I believe, like millions before me, including some of the greatest scientific and philosophical minds, that the Bible is true, Jesus is the Savior of the world, and the heavens declare His handiwork. Do I have unanswered questions? Yes, but I also have faith in a sovereign God who’s ways are higher than my ways.

        Andrew, if all you say is true, then both of us will end up as nothing. But I have a suspicion you worry that there is more to life than that. But if you truly want to remain an atheist, I will echo the words of C.S. Lewis, “A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading.”

      • heather joy

        Andrew –
        just to clear any confusion that there might’ve been re: my “oh wow” comment.
        That comment was not in response to your lengthy and seemingly “educated” response trying to make the Bible look utterly ridiculous and as savage as possible. In fact, quite the opposite. I was actually in complete awe of your ignorance of the Scriptures.
        Just so we’re clear.

    • Rob

      Ok Andrew, first you did not do your homework here, you mindlessly cut and pasted from this source and claimed it as your own: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f6ZewV_Ro5HLixACGE_wgJrnlFNVKVxTfuVALqARNEs/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

      So let’s do this logic style, make your claims one by one and we review them one by one. This is called making an actual argument when consists of making your claim/stating your premise, supporting it evidence and then coupling that with logic to form a valid or successful conclusion and if everything is done correctly the argument is cogent. You have the burden of proof Andrew

      You havent done that, you just plagiarized someone else w/o doing your necessary due diligence and testing each of these claims for veracity.

      The fact is, when this is done to each claim from your plagiarized list, tested correctly one by one, your position falls apart and what is revealed is the willful ignorance and bias of your position.

      You and other scoffers ignore the scholastic method of using the grammatical-historical hermeneutic scholars use for all ancient texts, which relies on the critical realist approach to history, by properly investigating the original grammar and the original audiences understanding in order to ascertan the authors intent, but instead you unscholastically substitute your modern cultural understanding using the English translation. A methodology no scholar would use but for some reason you scoffers think is valid when you do it. Yet when the grammatical-historical hermeneutic is followed these claims fall apart.

      For example the phrase ‘kill every man woman and child’ is known ANE hyperbole called the haram which is to remove the influence of that society and is not literal. It is used when cities/citadels/garrisons are attacked after the chance to repent is given and refused. The general populace did not reside in the citadels/garrisons/cities, they were out in the fields raising livestock and grains. Only the military solidiers, royalty, pagan temples were in the garrisons/citadels/cities. But you wouldnt know that because you are intellectually dishonest and havent followed the first step of the scientific method which is to thoroughly learn the field of study before making a hypothesis/claim.

      So, ready when you are, start making proper arguments and supporting them as you have the burden of proof here and I will be happy to refute you one by one and demonstrate you cannot fulfill your burden of proof, to expose your willful bias and ignorance.

      • Rob, thanks so much for taking the time to stop by and join the conversation (debate, argument, rant-exchange, whatever). With regards to what you said, it is definitely easy to throw out a whole bunch of charges against the reliability and credibility of Scripture, but it’s totally different when each one of those concerns are addressed individually. I am hoping Andrew and you will have a chance to continue the discussion you proposed. After all, it was Andrew who said, “I noted your network of fellow bloggers. I am happy to extend the rebuttal invitation the them as well!”

  8. Andrew

    Good morning Anthony,

    I can’t go to hell is there isn’t one! Admittedly, I will be going to hell if in fact it exists. I accept the risk.

    Look, I am not trying to exhaust you and I apologize if my points of debate have made you feel that way. I understand that your blog is primarily intended for a Christian audience…but isn’t that kind of like preaching to the choir? No pun intended!

    What we’re talking about here, substantively, is the supreme creator of the universe…versus me. Shouldn’t God be able to handle a little pointed criticism? Shouldn’t his people, his followers, be able to articulate a position regarding his divine being with relative ease? I would certainly think so! If not, why has God gone to such lengths to hide himself? Could it be that he just isn’t there at all?

    I don’t expect you to respond to that gigantic list of Biblical WTFs…as we would most likely disagree on your explanation anyway. I am at a loss, however, with how one justifies throwing babies against rocks or requiring that a woman marry her rapist. I think those things are wrong regardless of cultural context, but that’s just me.

    Perhaps I didn’t mention it before but I am not a life-long atheist. I am 27 years old and was an every-Sunday Christian until I was about 25. I used to use the online handle “Apollos” after the great Christian orator of the first century because that’s what I wanted to be: a great voice for God. Well, then doubt set in. I struggled, initially, to reconcile the ideas of a loving god and the utter failure of his plan to save people…which, according to the rules for being saved in the Bible, stand at roughly 28%. That’s not a very good success rate. Still, I read CS Lewis, and I read Lee Strobel, and I read others. I found their explanations hollow and devoid of reason, still appealing to the specter of “faith” rather than the knowables.

    Suffice it to say, I’ve done my homework.

    But, that’s not that important right now. Tend to your wife (I hope she is better soon!) and we will discuss things another day!

  9. heather joy

    Pastor Baker –
    Your response to Andrew was excellent. Full of grace and truth. I don’t think it could’ve been stated any better than that.

  10. Andrew

    Heather, since you’re so familiar with Scripture, would you be willing to respond to any of those verses listed?

    It’s easy to say “oh wow” and simultaneously claim that the cases in point represent “ignorance.” It’s something else entirely to actually provide a substantive response.

    Also, it should be pointed out, in matters of doctrine, theology, and teaching, the Bible says you aren’t permitted to teach and, in fact, should be quiet (1 Tim 2:12).

    Just so we’re clear, I don’t subscribe to that…I consider women equal. I am just point out your Bible doesn’t consider you equal.

  11. Andrew

    Also, Anthony, Heather…I noted your network of fellow bloggers. I am happy to extend the rebuttal invitation the them as well!

    It should take too much to rationally explain even a few verses…especially since listing them was evidently a display of complete ignorance.

    (I would like to provide a fair warning though: If there is one thing I am not, it is ignorant. In fact far, far from it.)

    Cheers!

    • Steve C.

      Andrew, just so we’re clear, if all your points were given a reasonable explaination, would you then abandon your athiesm and become a follower of Christ? If not, then we can all be sure the issue isnt really the points you raised, but something deeper.

      • As a matter of fact Steve, yes.

        If, indeed, you could provide a reasonable explanation why God would slay 50,000 people for looking into the Ark, allow / encourage his people to throw babies onto rocks, and force women to marry their rapists, I would be happy to reconsider Christianity. (not to mention the dozens of other bizarre excerpts)

        Believe me, believing you’ll live forever, as a result of the acceptance of the free gift of salvation, is much easier than accepting that the end is just the end. My grandpa died two years ago. I would be ecstatic if I thought I could see him again someday.

        If, indeed, a rational, logical, and reasonable explanation exists…I’m all ears.

      • Andrew, I’m happy that you are opening up. Having lived a little longer than you, and having shook my fist at God in the past, I can understand a little of your pain and disillusionment. But let me be honest, unless you are first willing to accept there is a God, then you will only continue to find fault, even where there is none. Earlier you shot down the idea of faith, but faith is essential in almost every area of life. I fear the problem is that God has offended you, and no matter what evidence is shown, you will interpret it differently. Unlike Job who said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him,” you say, “Because He slays anyone, I will not trust Him.”

  12. I mentioned the story of my grandfather to illustrate that being able to believe would make missing him easier. My grandpa died of natural causes as an old man and, ostensibly, went to heaven based on his beliefs. Why would I be made at God about that?

    If there’s any reason to be upset with God, its the fact that his plan for salvation is a complete failure. Well, not complete I guess. It does save roughly 28% of the population of Earth. Of course, that assumed every single person who self-identifies as “Christian” is, indeed, saved.

    Why do I have to be willing to accept that there is a God? I spent a whole lot of time, 25 years to be exact, giving God all the credit in the world! I gave him credit for all the good and assumed his plan was working during the bad.

    And why is the fault I point out invalid if I claim there is no God? It’s still fault, and contradiction, and hypocrisy, and a sore lack of evidence. That doesn’t change whether you believe, or I believe, or anyone else believes. Objectively, that is all still there.

    I stand to gain nothing if there is no God. I stand to gain paradise and companionship with my Creator should I believe and accept His sacrifice. So, why not just do that!?

    I claim there is no god on the grounds of reason, logic, and research. It is not an easy idea, but its also a truthful one, based on solid ground.

    Have you, Anthony, ever actually heard God? I don’t mean you’ve felt him “move you” or anything ambiguous. Have you ever heard God?

    • As much as I hate to do this, I must answer your question with a question reminiscent of a wise man on a mountain. When have you NOT heard God? Have I heard Him with an audible voice? No. But what does that matter? I’ve never heard Henry Ford, but I’ve driven his cars. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have never called me, but I know they exist by their handiwork. For that matter, ask Helen Keller if she ever heard His voice. I can hear what my wife is saying with just a glance from her. To say that I’ve never heard God because He’s never spoken in English from the clouds like a Monty Python cartoon is too simple.

      Anthony Psalm 57:2

      Sent from iPhone.

      • I’m asking about evidence of God’s existence, specifically.

        The Earth is not evidence of his existence any more than its evidence of, say, the existence of Thor.

        Brotherly love is not evidence of the existence of the Abrahamic god any more than its evidence of, say, the existence of Eros.

        And while you haven’t heard Henry Ford’s voice, there IS gratuitous evidence of his existence! Photographs, video, etc. We can draw rational conclusions that he did in fact exist!

        Muslims believe in the same evidence that you do…except with regards to Hohammed’s revelation in the desert. Or what about Joseph Smith’s Mormons? Do you think they believe any less in their faith and understanding than you do? I doubt it:

        But I guess they’re wrong and you’re right. Good thing God saw fit to ensure you (and your fellow bloggers, your congregation, et al) were born here, into Christianity. What if you’re wrong and you’re angering Allah?

      • Dude! There is no shortage of evidence! The issue at hand is how the evidence is interpreted.

        Take, for example, a picture of a basket ball bouncing on the ground. Crop the shot so that all you see is the ball, the floor, and some evidence of movement. Never having seen a basketball game, basketball factory, etc., and not even knowing totally what you were looking at, would you automatically assume the ball was bouncing on its own? Would you assume that it came into being on its own? Would you assume that the box-cropped picture contained all the evidence capable of being known? You see where I’m going with this, right?

        You and I can look at creation and assume one of two things: either it was created, or it always was. I look at the “evidence” of creation and come to the conclusion that it was not a fluke, an accident, or self-existent material. Convinced that there is no God, you make the opposite assumption. Both of us are looking at the same evidence. The evidence is there. Either “The heavens declare His handiwork,” or the heavens have nothing to say, and meaning is irrelevant.

  13. I wouldn’t base my conclusion regarding the basketball on the photograph alone. I would search for more evidence. First, I would go to a local sporting goods store and try to find a similar ball. Long story short, I wouldn’t assume somebody is bouncing the ball simply because I don’t have a better explanation.

    And we’re not talking about the same evidence and interpreting it differently. This notion, prevalent among theists, was the final tipping point for me and my apostasy. The willful ignorance of scientific evidence in favor of the non-evidence of religion is detestable in my opinion. I’m sure you’re a creationist, right? Despite the mountains of evidence for evolution. Before you counter that it’s just a “theory,” is isn’t “just” a theory. In order for a scientific idea to earn the title of theory, it must be backed by mountains of evidence. To put that into perspective, we still call it the “Theory of Gravitation” thought I doubt you’re worried about floating away. We also call it “Atomic Theory” though you probably don’t the existence of atoms or nuclear forces, right?

    Evolution is in the same category as the others in regas to biology. And it contradicts Creation.

  14. Also, the heavens aren’t saying anything. That’s kind of the point!

    …and we have meaning anyway.

    I understand how that’s terrifying to a theist. I was one, I’ve felt that fear. It’s a lot more comforting to cling to the false premise that life is meaningless without god. Indeed, the fact that’s there’s meaning outside of the sphere of “god” negates the purpose of faith entirely.

    • Big claims from an atheist. Can you present proof of objective meaning apart from man’s own subjective assumptions? You look at the basketball and claim it has purpose, yet you say it wasn’t created.

      Anthony Psalm 57:2

      Sent from iPhone.

      • Claiming meaning from one deity in the face of thousands in history is the epitome of subjectivity. How could that be any more obvious?

        When did I say the basketball had purpose? I didn’t.

        We don’t have purpose in the grandiose sense of glorifying a mythical being. We have purpose in loving our friends, families, and significant others. We have purpose in helping our fellow man and making the world a better place…not because an iron age book tells us to, just because it’s the right thing to do.

  15. So let me get this straight…

    You’re the leader of a church, ostensibly knowledgeable about God, the Bible, so on and so forth.

    I counter your poor analogy and ridiculoud reference to “Darwinian propaganda” (which, as I mentioned, only serves to betray your ignorance of scientific theory) with a litany of well-vetted points supported by clear evidence.

    Your only response is an out-of-context reference to a statement by an evolutionary biologist?

    Well, alright then.

    • Andrew, please try not to be condescending. If I wanted, I could have deleted all your comments and never let you voiced your opinion on this blog. However, I have chosen to let you speak.

      You have offered plenty of stuff. Most, if not all, could be argued against both philosophically and scientifically. I could go dig up a shelf full of books and a list of links, but you would only find more ways to question it all. Besides that, you’d probably label anyone I suggested as “ignorant,” considering what you’ve called me.

      I’m not a professional apologist. I don’t stay on top of all the scientific arguments. I know those who do, but I don’t. My focus is on shepherding my flock through the valleys they are in, not deal with questions they do not have. I don’t have atheists in my congregation.

      Now, with regards to my “ignorance” of Darwinism, evolution, etc., I am perfectly aware that there are different schools of thought. I also know, from my college days, that there are biology professors with an agenda – destroy faith in freshmen. I’ve got an education.

      Ultimately, I do not think any evidence will convince you. I truly believe that. Like a scientist who looks at things which to any common observer looks designed and says, “It only appears that way,” you will look at nature and call it an accident. I did not take Dawkins out of context. I watched an interview of him describing that the world DID appear to be the product of design, but that of extraterrestrial intelligence. “Panspermia” was the theory he suggested. Like you, he saw what the believer sees, yet sought to find another explanation. There is no arguing with someone who rules out God because He “can’t” exist.

      I teach the Bible. I believe it is God’s word. I believe that there have been skeptics who have come and gone, yet it still stands and still changes lives. I believe in the message of the Cross, foolishness to you, but life to those who believe. I look at creation and see the handiwork of a creator, not the random assemblies of atoms resulting from an explosion of eternally existent matter.

      I’ll get back to you with specifics, though. However, I’d appreciate it if you’d keep the remarks respectful. As you can tell, I don’t blast you with “sinner” references. But in the meantime, let me promise you this, I AM praying for you.

      Anthony Psalm 57:2

      Sent from iPhone.

  16. Why should it take a professional within Christianity to defend relatively basic claims against it?

    Anyway, I appreciate you not resorting censorship to shut me up! 🙂

    I am going to start a blog of my own shortly and you’ll be welcome to chime in as often as you please.

    I appreciate that you care enough you pray for me, and I will let you know if they’re working.

  17. cranmer1959

    As if the problem were the things outside of man proceeding to the heart? Jesus got it right. It is what comes out of the heart of a man that defiles him, not what he eats, hears, or views. Take away the porn and the sinful nature remains. But Pharisees ALWAYS focus on the outward appearance, the outside of the cup. But inwardly they are dead men’s bones. The point of the moral law is to reveal sin to be utterly sinful, not to prove that the Pharisees have kept it. There is none righteous, no not even ONE. That is not to say that grace is a license to sin. But it is to point out that your point of view only proves you have no clue what the Gospel is. True, the sex offender ought to avoid the internet if it causes him to sin. But even without the internet the source of the problem lies within. If you are claiming to be without sin, the Bible says you are a liar and the truth is not in you. (1 John 1:8-10). Thus, no amount of good works can justify anyone. Free grace is not earned by works and no amount of works can give any assurance whatsoever.

  18. Lee

    One of the great things about being a Christian is that nowhere in the bible am I ever commanded to convince anyone that God is real. I don’t know Anthony, but it seems like he is doing what God called him to do, reach out to the world and share what he believes. If you’re not careful, he might just care about you and pray for you Andrew, weather you like it or not.

    • Yes, Lee, that is true. You’re not commanded to convince anyone God is real. That does not, however, change the fact that the burden of proof of God’s existence lies with you if the matter ever comes up for discussion. I would refer you to Russell’s Teapot for more on that.

      • Lee

        Nope, the burden of proof of God’s existence is purely God’s. Bertrand had a pretty rough life and probably met up with some Pharisee’s rather than Christians when he needed help. When the matter comes up, I don’t worry about it, I don’t argue about it and I really just want you to know what I believe God has done to change my life around. If you don’t agree with me or believe me, that’s your choice, I’m OK with that. The burden of proof that really matters (to me) is, did I follow Christ’s example and love you when you mocked me, hurt me, insulted me, ignored me, and left me by the wayside thinking I’m a bumbling idiot for thinking the way I do. That proof is mine to bare. All platitudes aside, I have faith in God, he gives me purpose. I have hope, it changes my day for the better. I have love, it changes me for the better. Have an awesome day Andrew.

      • It’s a few days late, Lee, but thanks for stopping by. I appreciated it.

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